Robot II May 10

[km]

You can download the new Robot II right now, version date = May 10.

Lots of new goodies in there.

I'm experimenting with some new Filters. First one is "Bad Class". It works pretty well and I might tweak it and even put into HTR2 and MaxVel as a flag later.

Here is my dilemma and maybe those of you reading this can help with advice. Other vendors love to steal ideas from HTR and lurkers on this board will naturally want to get information as freely as they can - nothing wrong with that, this is a free speech bbs and that means free reading too. But these days, any tidbit of a new concept immediately ends up getting passed around like a box of donuts and is eaten up in no time (re: lower ROI).

Normally i fully explain each of the items placed into the Robot to our subscribers. But now I"m thinking with items like "Bad Class" it is better to just keep it to myself and let you test it. (this has been the case with the K rating formula since day one). If it works, do you really care exactly what it is? Do you need the technical explanation to make use of it?

Suppose i add a filter = "Trainer Trickery" or "Five Star System" to the Robot. Will you need to have the specs and full information? Or can you live with the mystery and just use it? Trust is not an issue because every subscriber can test it thoroughly. The issue is keeping the idea under wraps so that it does not end up like "Double Advantage Speed Figure" with ROI = 0.77 and everyone in the world is aware of it.

BTW: Export and db users, some of these items would also be out of your reach. Cannot add to the export without revealing them in some cases. A 'flag' such as nBADCLASS = 1 would have to suffice.

[DanG]

I’m of the opinion that to make optimum use of a factor, its best to know what’s under the hood.

But…in this day and age with the speed and access that a competitor (gambler, data provider or both) can exploit an advantage I say treat them like mushrooms. "Keep them in the dark and feed them"…you know the rest.

If you come clean with the workout rating for example…what do we gain? It might help some of the geeks among us in applying companion factors so we reduce cross-talk; but the downside is FAR more destructive in this tough game.

Quick story that I’ve probably told too much, but I think it fits the occasion.

When looking for a data provider in 2005 (after being dissatisfied with formulator) I was a split second away from signing with a well known software vendor. The last phone conversation we had he dropped this little gem on me. “I have a deal with my customers that I don’t provide them with ‘everything. They seem ok with the arrangement that I keep some of the best stuff for myself.” With my hand on a stack of bibles that what he told me.

Not naming names and not really saying that approach is necessarily wrong; but as Tomcat said recently. Ken has an open door policy and to some degree an open-source policy. It’s the integrity along with the data that separates HTR from the field and some may take advantage of that.

If every single proprietary factor is explained in detail, in the end…we all lose. It’s a game of information; we compete against each other even though within the HTR community we compete against those who are not. The more eyes Ken allows in his research room; the more we invite those outside of our world to benefit from his hard work.

Now Gupta will tell me how wrong I am and all will be right in the world. :D

[SPIKE]

I personally trust the machine. I have a degree in computer science, but that does not come into play when I am playing the ponies. KM is the father of HTR, so I have the upmost trust that he knows what he is doing. We dont need a lower ROI, the game is hard enough. Thanks for all your hard work, it is greatly appreciated.

[jbshoulda]

When I get on a an airplane to Vegas do I know all the physics and engineering it takes to fly? No. I just want to get there.

After almost 10 years with HTR do I really know what code, algorithms, and "stuff" are? No. I just want to get there, succeed. Has it helped? Tremendously.

If you want to put a button that says Bet Me Dummy and it's profitable, well that's good enough for me. Thanks Ken for the journey. I've learned a lot.

[MikeDee]

I don't have a problem with not releasing all the logic in a filter or flag, in fact I prefer that you don't give away the nuggets to the world.

I do hope that you continue to put the indicators in a export so us export users can use them as well for spot play and race analysis.

[DanG]

I don't have a problem with not releasing all the logic in a filter or flag, in fact I prefer that you don't give away the nuggets to the world.

I do hope that you continue to put the indicators in a export so us export users can use them as well for spot play and race analysis.
Good point Mike.

[SPIKE]

Well put Mike.

[Gambler]

I agree with all the above thoughts.
I enjoy what i have today and look forward to what may come tommorow..

[Roghaltz]

I am with Mike. If I can export it, thats good enough for me.

Ezra

[tomcat]

I think we all agree.

[BillW]

I think we all agree.

hear hear!

[Mike T]

"BTW: Export and db users, some of these items would also be out of your reach. Cannot add to the export without revealing them in some cases. A 'flag' such as nBADCLASS = 1 would have to suffice."

I fully understand not giving things away and I wouldn't want you to give it away. It is money out of all our pockets. A flag like that above would be great. Personally, I don't need to know, for example, what makes a horse nBADCLASS = 1, just like to know he is one.:)

[dehere]

I guess I'm happy as long as there's an export available so I can use it. It sure is nice to know what I'm using though. How can you put something in context in your handicapping when you don't know what its all about?

I guess there are some algorithms that Ken employs to come up with a rating and that I've never understood and that hasn't bothered me. However, if I don't know the basis of some handicapping tool is I probably wouldn't ever use the thing even if I lost money with such conduct.

I know its stupid but my enjoyment in handicapping horses is far less about making money than it is about feeling the satisfaction that the tools I have chosen to rely on have led me to come up with the winner "on my own".

[fred4now]

Mike said it perfectly. Hide the good stuff but somehow give it to us in an export.
The robot is awesome and I use it more and more, but I doubt that you will ever spend the time to code the things that we can do in Access.

[pmannet]

I know who you're talking about Dan G as I heard the exact same thing from him (assuming there's only one out there). Basically..." I'll give you all sorts of stuff, you have to find out what works for you and I keep some of the best stuff for myself that I learned from privately programming for large bettors". At least he's not hiding it so I give him credit for that.

----------------

I don't expect to know the exact formula and as a new user have no problem with not knowing it. It's hard to keep an edge in this game if you share too much.

I just need to know what it's attempting to measure (form, class etc), how effective it is overall and a good starting point of how to use it (via the newsletters). Then I'll try to learn where it works for me, or if it does and incorporate where appropriate.

Then we can provide feedback as to what we think might improve it and you can test it.

[matthewsiv]

This is your program and you should not divulge any of your secrets.

You have the best program which you charge nothing for?

With a $150 a month for downloads.

Your services are a STEAL.

You should be charging $500 a year users fee just for the program,with a $5 a charge for each newsletter.

My friend you are the best and I have All In One,Pops And Tips(Useless) and HSH which I could not work.

The discussion groups are friendly and you are very helpful along with other posters,and you take the time
to answer everyone's question.

I think that the site should be for members ony,who subscribe to HTR.

Do not give away your hard work.

[matthewsiv]

When I get on a an airplane to Vegas do I know all the physics and engineering it takes to fly? No. I just want to get there.

After almost 10 years with HTR do I really know what code, algorithms, and "stuff" are? No. I just want to get there, succeed. Has it helped? Tremendously.

If you want to put a button that says Bet Me Dummy and it's profitable, well that's good enough for me. Thanks Ken for the journey. I've learned a lot.

Just give me the BET ME DUMMY Button

I would be in heaven.

I have paralysis by analysis.:confused:

[Huguenot]

I agree that we do not need to know the details of what's under the hood but should recieve some general guidelines of what it's attempting to measure. For example, we don't know exactly how the WO figure is attained but we do know it measures the quality of a workout in a way that predicts how the horse will eventually ran.

When you saw a "bad class" horse I assume it means a horse who does not fit today's class/conditions very well. If so, that is all I need to know.

[km]

Hug - what if the item is "KM's Private Super System" ?

Do I have to give you hints then? Open a can of worms and you know what will happen. We are already seeing more attention paid to workouts on the Internet and other vendors are scrambling to figure out Razor Sharp. It won't take them long (maybe one month subscription to HTR to read the newsletter) to get the gist of it.

If i had made Razor Sharp = "KM's HOT Shot Play", then there would be nobody that could ever figure it out and the ROI would have remained strong for far longer. If someone wants to understand the basic notion of Razor Sharp, all they have to do is subscribe for a month and read the newsletters. Game over in terms of edge for us.

I wish i could convey to you all how much the other retailers have stolen from me and repackaged. They lurk here, they have sharp programmers and marketing people, not handicappers on staff. They don't care if it hurts the ROI, they need to stimulate their clients and extract more money with the 'latest and greatest'. I'm sick of it as you can tell and want to put the lid on it.

If i have something original (and i do), i want ONLY HTR subscribers to have it. Unfortunately that means not divulging any clues at all and labeling it generic. The Robot will let you know if it works or doesn't, then you either run with it or ignore it. Even if a competitor subscribes and runs the Robot, they won't know what the "HOT SHOT" filter is based on. But they will certainly run off with Razor Sharp in a hurry after they figure out the basics of it - if they haven't already.

[njcurveball]

If i have something original (and i do), i want ONLY HTR subscribers to have it. Unfortunately that means not divulging any clues at all and labeling it generic. The Robot will let you know if it works or doesn't, then you either run with it or ignore it. Even if a competitor subscribes and runs the Robot, they won't know what the "HOT SHOT" filter is based on. But they will certainly run off with Razor Sharp in a hurry after they figure out the basics of it - if they haven't already.

You are driving the bus Ken and I think this is the most supportive group I have seen on the Internet. We all appreciate what you do, so don't let the pirates get you down. I wouldn't mind a factor being put in the download as K1, K2, etc.

I agree with what you wrote above. I saw many threads on the other forums saying Workouts are meaningless and was glad to read them. Now it seems workouts have taken on a new meaning thanks to one particular piece of software. ;)

What did Sartin use to say? There is a revolution going on! ;)

Perhaps it is time to make new subscribers come on board for 3 months minimum? I have seen HDW do that with some other software and it does make sense, if not simply for the reasons you stated above. Heck, I would say 6 months should be the minimum and if I have to pay 6 months at a time to HDW, I would be glad to do it to stay with HTR.

Thanks for all you do!
Jim

[Judicious Player]

This is your program and you should not divulge any of your secrets.

I think that the site should be for members ony,who subscribe to HTR.

Do not give away your hard work.

I agree that this forum should be a true Member's Only Forum. Every paying subscriber should be e-mailed a login code that is used to access the forum. Your unique login code is good as long as you are a paying customer (which means a new code does not have to be given out every month). If you did not pay that month, it is deactivated by the 6th of the month.

"Lurkers", as Ken calls them, should be eliminated, as they potentially destroy the ROI.

Free Speech is not an issue.

[stu]

I agree that this forum should be a true Member's Only Forum. Every paying subscriber should be e-mailed a login code that is used to access the forum. Your unique login code is good as long as you are a paying customer (which means a new code does not have to be given out every month). If you did not pay that month, it is deactivated by the 6th of the month.

"Lurkers", as Ken calls them, should be eliminated, as they potentially destroy the ROI.

Free Speech is not an issue.

This works for me too. I would like to be able to discuss the products and their use with other subscribers.

[SPIKE]

LURKERS, YOUR DAY IS COMING TO AN END. I HAVE COLD BEVERAGES ON ICE WAITING FOR THE DAY. THE SOONER THE BETTER BEFORE THE ICE MELTS. LIKE THE ROI

[DanG]

I go back and forth with the ‘member’s only aspect of HTR. Certain discussions; absolutely, but as an iron clad policy…I wish I knew the right answer.

I’m clearly guilty as charged for showing too much to people outside of the HTR circle. It wasn’t always by choice; they either lurk or it gets passed around like contraband at a frat party.

My thought process was always…I’ve learned so much through this BBS I wanted to give back. When on another forum; my thought process was I want to promote HTR to increases Ken’s market share. Ken does not advertise per-say. This is an underground fraternity in many respects and word of mouth through customer satisfaction is his hole card.

If you influence a forum of 300 people to this site, or show research based on HTR principles; how many customers does that net his business / vs. what damage has been done to the information we subscribe to? I wish I knew; but I always felt very uncomfortable that for every potential customer there were X number of “pirates” as Jim called them. (Hence; FAR less sharing unless a direct inquiry is made by someone whom I KNOW subscribes.)

I’m on board for whatever makes HTR stronger and keeps Ken’s business viable.

• Selfish reasons?

Absolutely and not ashamed to admit that I would be one devastated player if Ken went back to killing QH racing instead of working 24/7 for all of us.

• Noble reasons?

When you’re with HTR for any length of time the respect grows for Ken and the type of (long-term, loyal) people he attracts. Our game will always attract a high % of Mr. Haney trying to sell Oliver Douglas a broken turnip picker. :eek: When you find a situation that is not only a significant edge, but involved people you also respect…you have found the lone P6 ticket in the proverbial haystack.

[Ariel D]

If you are (or aspire to be...) a serious player with realistic long term ROI goals, then you have to protect the very information that provides that ROI for you. I am of the opinion that the discussion boards should be for subscribers only and that any future "discovery" of a factor should be kept secret by KM to avoid the issues he has discussed regarding other vendors.

Selfish? In the parimutuel arena we operate, it's the only way. There are many, many areas of our lives in which we can and should be noble, giving, caring etc but not when betting the horses and tring to protect the edge.

My 2 cents.

[blueken555]

Seems to me if you called it anything, we all run it through the Robot or Access to discover how to best use it for our style of play. If anyone truly had an overriding need to know what it was, they could send you a private e-mail or call you and make their case. You are therefore able to keep complete control and some modicum of an edge for all of us and where YOU feel its okay divulge what you choose to divulge ( but not for general consumption).

Best,
Ken

[completebill]

Seems to me if you called it anything, we all run it through the Robot or Access to discover how to best use it for our style of play. If anyone truly had an overriding need to know what it was, they could send you a private e-mail or call you and make their case. You are therefore able to keep complete control and some modicum of an edge for all of us and where YOU feel its okay divulge what you choose to divulge ( but not for general consumption).

Best,
Ken

--------------------I concur. HTR is a terrific bargain, and I continue to be impressed by Ken's hard work and dedication, and by the loyalty and commitment of HTR subscribers.
Ken and his loyal users should not be the subject of pirating, thereby devaluing his hard work and creativity. If "protecting" Ken's methodologies means that I don't get to know the nuts and bolts of any particular factor/angle, it's a small price to pay.
Ken has provided us with the tools to research and apply his theories to our benefit. These tools and theories should not be in the public domain.
THANKS, Ken, for your wonderful work, and THANKS, too, to all the contributors to these forums, from whom I continue to learn.

[Mark]

My oversimplified view is that HTR is whatever Ken's business model dictates. He's provided us a fine, fairly priced basis for anywhere we want to take it.

Thanks, Ken, it is indeed a pleasure.

[jack]

Ken, enough is enough, you have been ripped off for too long. It's not fair, and I think the great majority of members will support you in whatever you decide to do, I also think that the consensus is leaning heavily towards exclusivity for members. The members here share a lot and would probably be even more generous if we believed that the forum was private.
Any new Robot2 angles could simply be named S1,S2, etc., and placed in their respective categories
Ken, your ideas are your intellectual property, your livelihood, and as I benefit from I hope that you will profit from them. Good luck, and thank you and all the other helpful members.

[Huguenot]

Ken,
those are excellent points and whatever you wish to do we will back you I'm sure.

[BillBam]

Hi all...new member and still trying to stop my head from spinning with info overload.

I noticed in Ken's OP that the Robot version should be May 10th, my version date is March 1st. I reloaded the HTR2 and it hasn't changed, is there a specific link to load the new Robot versions?

As to Ken's OP IMO what ever makes me the most money works best for me, so if long term not knowing the details of a factor does that then I am all for it.

[Rick]

If you didn't use that installer before (the one that has HTR2, MaxVel & Robot2) you may need to uninstall the previous install, check your HTR directory and remove Robot2.exe, then run the full install that has all three programs.

You could also just download the latest Robot2.exe file and over write the old version.

This new installer doesn't appear to handle every situation the way I would like it to.

If you get everything installed with the new version that has all programs, in the future any time km makes a change to one of the the three programs, you should be able to download the installer that has all three programs and it should replace the old program with the new.

[BillBam]

If you didn't use that installer before (the one that has HTR2, MaxVel & Robot2) you may need to uninstall the previous install, check your HTR directory and remove Robot2.exe, then run the full install that has all three programs.

You could also just download the latest Robot2.exe file and over write the old version.

This new installer doesn't appear to handle every situation the way I would like it to.

If you get everything installed with the new version that has all programs, in the future any time km makes a change to one of the the three programs, you should be able to download the installer that has all three programs and it should replace the old program with the new.

Thanks for the quick reply Rick, the mistake was actually mine. I did not realize Robot and Robot II were different programs and missed the desktop icon for the R2 ( it got buried in the middle of my icons.) I have it now...Thanks!