2004 Tournament Bits

[Navrah]

From an un-named source: Well the tournament trail is going to be a little tougher this year? I just got some interesting information that I was suspecting. It was announced earlier this week that DRF/NTRA teams will be limited to just 3 and the fees are up to $2000 for each player to the track. So instead of $4000 for 4 players it'll be $6000 to 3. This is obviously in an effort to increase the Prize Money. Rumor has it that one of our favorite host(s) might not be hosting any/more qualifiers this year! I Hope this decision doesn't backfire & others follows. It's a great decision (maybe not the timing) but some are up in arms. I hope the tracks will continue to support this in an effort to make this a Lucrative/ Interesting Event for the Media/Television! This is an important potential marketing tool for racing if the Grand Prize is large enough to be interesting! Let's do our little part and continue to make sure that each of us let's the supporting tracks/hosts know how much we appreciate them hosting qualifiers in person and in writing!

[Cliff]

Jamie Haydon of NTRA confirmed this to me and below is a brief synopsis:

1) Only 3 qualifiers per host.
2) Less people at the Championship making it more managable for them.
3) Higher prize fund at the Championship.
4) Online qualifying tournaments sponsored by the NTRA with all entry fees going into the prize fund.
5) Potential for some hosts to drop out completely and/or reduce the number of qualifiers that they send.
6) Significant DRF input with regard to these changes.
7) 2004 qualifiers to be posted Friday.

My thoughts:

1) Luck will play an even more important role in attempting to get into the top 3 as opposed to the top 4.
2) Costs to enter will probably continue to go up at these venues.

[hurrikane]

I"m not really happy with the overall sound of this. Things were tough enough as it was. Esp here on the east coast where there are not that many tourneys to begin with.

[tomcat]

This may be someones solution to the criticism of Ballys. People I've heard from said they need more room, and others want more opportunities to compete. Who cares if the media and guessers compete?
I was told a rumor was floating here that Keeneland would host the national next year with more room and more entry opportunities.
Les Instone seems to be one of the better tournament directors.

[hurrikane]

I agree Tom,

Keeneland is a great place and they always put on a great tournament. And it seems like beautiful horse country would be a great place to have a championship. And just think..all those horsemen would'nt have all those roaming charges on their cell phones calling from LV.

[Cliff]

FWIW,

I asked Haydon if they were locked in via contract to have it at Bally's again in 2005 and he said "No".

He seemed to emphasize that 261 people was too many, that they wanted to make qualifying more "special" than it already was, and that they wanted to get the prize fund up. He also conveyed that they didn't think finishing 11th in a qualifier (EMD) and still going to the big dance was appropriate.

11th out of 400 seems "special" to me.

I hope they haven't screwed up a good thing.

[Navrah]

Not that anyone cares: I have to agree with he decision (not the process - that's none of my business). It should be an "elite event" - fewer players and higher prize money. How can one argue that? The eventual goal is to get this stuff on television and draw some outside fan interest ie World Poker Tour. It's gonna be pretty difficult in my eyes to do that when competing for just $100,000. For the record: Turfvivor is filming a Pilot of the their tournament. The problem lies as such: Will the mandate backfire? I hope not. Let's try to look on the brightside (assuming there will be one)!!!

[km]

This is a very good thread gang - thanks for starting it Navrah.

My intuition is that the NTRA -- inept with just about everything they do -- will fumble the ball with the Nat Handicapping Championship (NHC) too. They should have grandfathered the previous contests (such as EMD and TUP) and worked with them. But why burn their bridges with them?

The issues with running an on-line contest are a quagmire. Notice that all the current on-line qualifiers are free of charge? I looked into it myself, we investigated having a qualifier for the HTR contest prize. But there are legal issues involved. Many states (incl Texas) have strict regulations against gambling, sweepstakes, lotteries, etc that are played outside their own borders or via the Internet. (we have to say that our $25 entry fee is a 'donation' for Rick and not a contest fee, otherwise we could be breaking some state laws)

Assuming they overcome this problem somehow, the reality is that most on-line contest have 5000 or more contestants and for that reason, have a very simple format so that anybody can play. Basically a lottery. They aren't likely to conduct a contest like the one we are having on HTR right now in which the eventual winner will have shown considerable skill to get the top prize.

I really truly hope I'm wrong and they get a quality field of 200 players for a bangup NHC final in Vegas. But the NTRA has basically been an impotent organization and it isn't clear what direction or philosophy they have in mind with this right now. My guess is that they want to increase exposure to more casual fans and try to pick up on the SeaBiscuit glow. The direction would then be to have contests that are fun and lucky to win and do their best to prevent the same people from qualifying year after year.

[ggpagels]

2004 NTRA/DRF qualifier rules confusion. Cliff posted:

Jamie Haydon of NTRA confirmed this to me and below is a brief synopsis:

1) Only 3 qualifiers per host.
2) Less people at the Championship making it more managable for them.
3) Higher prize fund at the Championship.
4) Online qualifying tournaments sponsored by the NTRA with all entry fees going into the prize fund.
5) Potential for some hosts to drop out completely and/or reduce the number of qualifiers that they send.
6) Significant DRF input with regard to these changes.
7) 2004 qualifiers to be posted Friday.

When I noticed PowerPicks Contest Calendar had several contests with 4 qualifier positions I e-mailed them and got this reply:

Reno handicapping tournament notes
The Reno Hilton drew 138 entries, at $200 each, for its Winter Challenge handicapping tournament this past Saturday and Sunday for a purse of $27,600. The contestants put $300 through the betting windows each day and cashed their tickets in addition to competing for the prize money.

The top four finishers also earned berths in the Daily Racing Form/NTRA National Handicapping Championship to be held next January in Las Vegas. As of Monday morning, the winner had not signed a media release form, and tournament director Steve Fierro said he was unable to announce the champion's name.



:confused:

[hurrikane]

I agree with Ken. I will be amazed if NTRA pulls anything positive out of this. The intention may be good but I don't think they will get the desired results. It seems to me the last 2 years I have been to tournaments the number of entrants at the local level has grown tremendously with many tourney sold out on the day they open. Seem to me that is a pretty positive thing and the NTRA is trying to fix a part of the puzzle that isn't broken.

On anouther note...this is one hell of a contest for free!

http://www2.godolphin.com/frontend/introduction.asp

anyone ever play it? anyway we get numbers on these horses?

[dehere]

I agree with most of the post with concern about the changes NTRA is making in the national contest. Heck, 261 or 259 or however many were there in Vegas was not too many at all - the facility may have been too small, but the number of contestants was fine. Winning a hundred thousand would have been a trip, but I was really competing just to see if I could be competitive with this crowd. But as in most things, my opinion counts for little so I'll just try to qualify again according to these new rules.

Speaking of qualifying again, is anyone else thinking of heading to Chicago for the Hawthorne contest at the end of April? This seems to be a new event for them as their qualifying contest was a free entry thing with 400+ contestants previously. Check it out at http://www.sportsmanspark.com/track/drf.php. I have may my plane and hotel reservations and will be there. I kinda like the idea that it focuses on only one track. Three days is kinda long, but the entry fee ($100) and the format is interesting to me.

[Cliff]

GG,

Dave Snyder (who posts PowerPicks) is a veteran tournament player. However, I doubt if even he has access to the inner workings of the great minds that run the NTRA.

My understanding is that they allowed a few tournaments that had already been publicizing to "grandfather" in 4 entries for legal reasons. Can't vouch for Reno, but, Turf-Vivor at GP for sure and maybe a few others.

That pretty much screws up any type of Team contest that might have been run in 2005.

I'm convinced that they are locked into Bally's for the next year, or so and simply had to keep the numbers down although no one will confirm that.

Per KM and 'Kane, my gut feeling is that they'll find some way to shoot themselves in the foot with this as well. Sure, it's great to play for more money. But, with most hosts running at capacity fields already, a 1 in 40-50 shot on average to qualify will probably turn into a 1 in 60-70 minimum.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[ggpagels]

Thanks, Cliff. I e-mailed Keeneland and Maggie Johnson said that there would be only 3 qualifiers in each of their two contests this year due to the NTRA/DRF change.

[ronnie h]

my two cents is last year i put up 100.00 eantry fee and had two shots at least 3+ grand and this year 100.00 and 1 shot at 5 grand and i was in at least 5 contest. what is the big deal withdfr/thra iwould much rather win at orleans or some of the major contest where you have the bigger name players i would be proud to say i beat tom c' mike m' daven t, ernie L,bobby b and glenn L among other that i know that depend on 90 percent skill 10 percent luck.

[ronnie h]

extend to last post nothing upsets me more than ibet 200 win and place on a horse and freda bet 2.00 dollars on a 20/1 and the reason being she bet it because the jocky scratch his bal!** in the post parade. and the jocky was a female oh what a game lol!!!!!!

[km]

ggJerry - thanks for that info from the source

when you talked to that person at NTRA, did they clarify what is meant by "3 per host"? If KEE is having two contests with 3 qualifiers each, won't that be 6 from that host? I wish Steve Fierro would chime in here and tell us the inside scoop on what he knows - has Reno Hilton already exceeded their quota of 3? or can they run multiple contests and send 3 per?
Maybe Ernie can contact Steve and ask him to reply here.

NTRA is a puppet on a string for the tracks - but the marionettes are all pulling and fighting over the strings. Bad show.

[Cliff]

Ken,

Paraphrasing from my recent conversation w/ Jamie Haydon....

>>>We don't care if EMD has 1 tournament each day over a Friday-Sunday, but, they can only send 3 qualifiers from each tournament.<<<

Thusly, EMD could still send 9 from that weekend if they're willing to pay the increased fees.

[ERNIE LOGSDON]

Last I heard from SteveF he was on vacation until 2-28......Will forward this link to him at praceday.com and wait for a reply........will give him a call when he returns also.....
It would be best for Steve to speak for the Reno Hilton ....but the last I saw of him he was concerned and wondering what to do about the fourth person from the contest they had held the weekend that the rule change to 3 only was announced........

[ERNIE LOGSDON]

Forwarded this link to Steve at : Praceday@greatbasin.net

[Navrah]

Now that we're talking about rule clarification another item that might be interesting: In speaking with some tournament coordinators in the past it was there understanding that the "tournament host" couldn't profit from the "entry fees". All "entry fees" were to be returned as prize money was there understanding. I've heard this several times from several coordinators. Yet for those of us who've played have surely added up the numbers and on various occassions the track(s) have made a reasonable profit even including the $4000 for 4 Vegas Bound Trips. Since this isn't all that unusual can it be safely assumed that these tournament coordinators have misunderstood the flexibility of the rules or was this always up to the the track?

[Steve Fierro]

Sorry I took so long to reply. In Florida no computer. I Have purchased some e-mail time so here goes. It may be lengthy (this is how angry I am).

KM has it right. The NTRA is ruining a GREAT! thing.

There job is to promote racing. A plan to introduce this event to more players not less is in order. This is their job. The time is right to do this.

The principle responsibility for a tournament organizer is to plan a sensible event. Once planned and running you must listen to all and do what is best for the host, player and the overall format as a majority not the vocal minority.

In this case the early buzz at this year's tourney is that Bally's was too small and the pot not big enough. In my opinion both are wrong. I know John A. would do what he could to provide more space. He is one of the most player friendly and well organized individuals I know in the sport. The prestige and not the pot is the driver of this event.
By the way I have offered the NTRA twice on my dime to come out to the Hilton that holds 1,100 folks. They have not come.

The other problem and I have covered this with the NTRA as well is this: Why do they wait to select the next year's sight. All items surrounding this event should be like Breeders' Cup. Sights should be up 3 years in advance and all strategic plans should be made likewise and shared with both the players and qualifying sights.

This is all "knee jerk" reaction and reflects poor planning. It is also unfair to put the added charges on the backs of the host sight. There are other options. Doubling fees without consultation and making rules changes after the year has started is like someone doubling an entry fee to a tournament after is has started.

I am at Tampa Bay this week (great to see Wes B, by the way). They started their qualifier and they are sending (2). Turfvivor 4. The Hilton is sending four. I wish I could answer if we at the Hilton have used our "quota" of three. This is how vague this whole thing is.

I have spoken to many across the country and there is a definite fury about how this all came about. This is not just from the host sights but from players as well.

I have to add that this currently is my personal opinion. I also am not dodging this with a fake e-mail name. I will meet with the Hilton folks and I have been told many racetracks execs will be doing the same at their respective sights. There is a point for all involved where this just does not make sense from a cost standpoint (which is a big reason the Reno Hilton is the only Casino Race and Sports book in the nation that is not the host sight that participates) The result will be fewer qualifiers. Fewer host sights. All this is bad for the game and those that love it.

Once again the player suffers at the hand of those that don't keep us first and foremost in their plans. I know this is heavy handed but those of you that know me all realize that I play beside you all the time. There are many that aren't players ruining many aspects of the game for those of us that are. Steve Fierro

[km]

thanks for laying it down for us Steve - gutsy statement.

Your point about the NTRA making this decision and implementing the changes -- during same the year they intend to make the changes --- is the puzzling aspect. The new policies and format should have been finalized and presented for implementation the following year. It may be a foreign concept to the NTRA, but most businesses plan ahead and schedule major events months in advanced. What's the rush ?

It is a good guess the NTRA suddenly realized what great PR these tournaments are and saw great potential for added credibility in the mass market. Likely this upheavel is a power grab for greater control and to assert that they are the 'straw that stirs the drink' for the National Handicapping Championship.